And can the visual not have impact? If, on the other hand we assign the planetary qualities of Mars to this house we get sexuality but what else? And the same with Pluto — an incomplete association. Humanistic astrology a la Rudhyar emphasizes modality as much as anything it seems to me.
The 8th being the 2nd water house and 2nd H of desire and survival — only now, having to include another, the 12th letting go of all desire bringing the wisdom of all 12 houses to the world again in the first house. I am looking forward to a melding of the old with the new — and even different systems. I think it is possible to find answers as we move forward and to believe that we can have as much insight as the ancients. I think there will be an interface of new discovery in physics with all of this and I hope it is in my life time.
Thanks to all for a great podcast. It presents some interesting ways of thinking about houses vs signs, constructing meaning from combinations of fundamental concepts. He certainly influenced Rudhyar. I think tropical astrology works in both hemispheres regardless because the 12 houses of the zodiac are an ordering of the cosmos, the Universe, which operates beyond earthly regional seasons. Since humankind assigned a meaning to that order centuries ago, it resonates and is useful wherever one may be. I do not know how this works, just that it does.
When we use astrology we are ordering an internal process that has outward manifestation. Perhaps among the many expressions of each sign, some are more emphasized in a certain part of the world, within a certain cultural context, but this does not preclude the usefulness of astrology or the essential meaning of an astrological house in all other parts of the world. Lastly, any reading, done any where, can be done with a focus on just the cosmos the signs or just the solar system planets and angles and both these readings can be equally as accurate.
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One system resonates with the other somehow. Certainly this phenomenon would play into the debate, would it not? But that still leaves you with one huge problem. You say that houses can mean whatever you want then to mean? But the most important thing about them, something that several here have mentioned, is that they all share the same relative to each other. Currently, I am studying the concept sect for example, and find that to be fascinating and informative. To me, the 4th H will always be the father and the home and roots and foundational security — I see it very connected to the IC and of course, it affects the interpretation the chart is a whole if we wish to approach the chart in an integrated, modern way.
This is within reason of course — I am not about inventing my own system of astrology — far from it. I am in total agreement that the order was not only imposed on us but even more — that we are part of and at one with that order. As above, so below is my bent. If I were using the existing system of astrology that was not developed in the southern hemisphere, than I would have to use those meanings would I not?
Likewise, the first house in the chart would carry the same meaning, relative to the other houses of course, as it would in the north. This reasoning pre-supposes that there is not a causal influence — that the seasons were integral to the design of the meanings, relative to the vernal point, but just one expression of death and re-birth, and an easy one to grab onto because that was seen in the environment.
So maybe I am missing something with the actual science here my weakness as the vernal point relates to the southern hemisphere which throws my reasoning out the door. Very possible. It just seems like such a leap to say that astrology can only work in the part of the world that is similar to where it originated. This ordering of the cosmos is that specific to place of origin?
Please — anyone — feel free to enlighten me. If I move to Australia from the North my bet is that I can use astrology in the same way and see the same results. I too am very interested in Mr. A few of things to consider on the subject of why the tropical zodiac may work in the southern hemisphere ….. These are small time periods in terms of evolution. They are also small populations. This training has taken place in deep areas of the brain. They still have northern hemisphere brains. Physical evolution takes place much more slowly than cultural evolution.
Want to add to the discussion?
I really liked the comment Chris made about Mercury being the ancient planet of astrology and representing the ability to hold two ideas in mind. Thanks for a great podcast, really enjoyed it! Evolution occurs in both a spatial and temporal environment and then persists for long periods of time.
I believe it was Rudhyar who first suggested that humans evolved in the northern hemisphere imprinting the tropical zodiac there and only later migrated south bringing the imprint with them.
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I am not really sure about the validity of the evolutionary point Chet has introduced to suggest early humans evolved in the northern hemisphere. Most of the findings of early humans are in Kenya and Tanzania. Tanzania is south of the equator while the equator runs right through the middle of Kenya. It would probably more accurate to say early humans evolved close to the equator than to heavily emphasize a northern hemisphere vs southern hemisphere origin.
Equally, while Aboriginal Australians may only have been in the Continent , years exactly the same point could be made regarding the occupation of Europe and SW Asia by modern humans. One point that is relevant I think is that on a planetary level is that That includes Antartica. Of course on the equator there are no distinct seasons as in the Northern hemisphere. However, as Nick Dagan Best explained the Sun on a planetary level is moving more slowly in tropical Leo and faster in tropical Aquarius regardless of your location. Similarly, we see a shift in gear in solar speed at the equinoxes.
So in regards rulerships we dont need to resort to seasonal considerations. These can be explained due to planetary speed. I would be interested to hear a debate regarding the use of certain house systems, particularly as the most commonly used systems completely fails at increasing latitudes. Alcabitus seems to overcome this issue but is rarely used? Keepin is referring to implicate order the process level and the nature of reality.
As above, so below. Is it not possible that the reason western astrology works any where in the world regardless of an individuals DNA , is that the easy correlation to the manifest seasonal expression was just one expression of something much more profound and universal? This way, the system works whether cherry blossoms are blooming in April or not.
What would happen if we used a different language to describe this system, one that did not take away from the original meaning of the houses or the signs and rulersips but was not so insistent on crocus popping through the snow in March and leaves dying in November? It seems that perhaps we are evolving beyond the limited analogy to the seasons regardless of how counter intuitive that seems in some parts of the world, and are now forced to realize a more profound implication — to adjust our point of manifest reference relected in our language.
We do not live in that ancient context — but we can take what works from the past and get a bigger perspective. We are evolving! The fact remains that astrology works, we all know this; Australians know this, Los Angeles know this — I would say that is pudding wherein lies the proof. I agree Mike Wackford does a good job in making a case for Placidus at high latitudes.
But at such an extreme polar latitude its not just a particular house system that fails. Is horoscopic astrology as we understand it that cannot cope with an MC under the earth and signs that never rise at all. The real trick is application. Ed , I think the astrological objections to a particular house systems depend very much on the astrologer.
For the more pragmatic amongst us the objection can be as simple as that a particular system makes delineation unrealistic. For example, I live at a latitude of 55N and tens of millions of people live further north than that. Yet even at my latitude Campanus house cusps become folded in on each other to such an extent you cannot work with them.
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But I fully accept that is largely a matter of taste on my part. You can certainly argue Placidus is accurately reflecting the changes to ascensional rising times of the tropical signs as you travel north. I suppose my question is whether our house size should be about ascensional rising times in the first place? I think there are good arguments on both sides.
Also the time based systems reflect an ancient attitude focused on timing the passage of constellations that goes back to the Egyptian decans. Placidus also exactly matches the planetary hours. In contrast though you can argue a house, like a sign should reflect the 30 degree movement of the Sun and planets along the ecliptic.
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I doubt any experienced astrologer would seek to deny the power and importance of the MC in a chart so I find a quadrant system like Porphyry useful to assess how effective a planet might be. I like to compare this issue to aspects. Most astrologers only use conventional aspects by degrees along the ecliptic. Very few use mundane or in mundo aspects that reflect where the planets really are in relation to the earth. Yet that can be a very useful approach too. No argument, Mark.
I tend to look at house issues, at least for timing and strength, only using mundo positions. For topical applications, yeah I play with whole sign houses. Thanks for the thoughtful commentary! Also, there are a limited number of houses systems discussed, and Alcabitus is not one of them.
However, your discussion with Mark raises some interesting points which I am seeking to understand. Chris, is this discussion of house systems off topic? In principle, mundo house positions would be determined using standard Placidus methods unless they do not rise or set, at which point his 6-part division of the declination circle in which they are moving would be used to determine position. The default for that format is Placidus, but I think you can also select other systems including Alcabitus.
Maybe we should take our houses discussion over to the podcast Chris recently did on house systems. Chris forgot to raise that topic with Deborah Houlding in their discussion on the history of house systems so I guess its a useful addition. But then again that was a discussion mostly about the historical evidence over practical delineation. I know two traditional astrologers in Sweden and they both use Alcabitius semi-arc. The fundamental differences lie in the way these projections are related to the ecliptic, by use of hour circles Placidus , vertical circles Alcabitius , or projection of the Ascendant Koch.
One is confined to their location database, and initially I could not enter any Greenland location without the site generating a chart for Greenland Station, NH in the USA. The resultant chart displayed uses Porphyry with houses, but when I forced the use of Placidus in the Extended Chart Selection options, the chart had no houses at all. Starfisher based on Astrolog seems to produce a more profound effect with the MC using Nordgronland but never drops below the horizon. Mark, thanks for an excellent simple explanation of the fundamental differences in the 3 mentioned house systems.
HI Kenneth, My bad. Yes, programmers will use different limits and so on. For instance, when I was programming my app that uses a Placidus like formulation, the formula given in the reference blows up due to an intermediate calculation of a trig function going out of range. By substituting a mathematically equivalent formula, the effect is avoided.
So, there can be a lot of different reasons for different approaches. In my opinion, most of the differences seem to be due to differing opinions of how it ought to be done. For instance, Placidus, Topocentric and Svarogich are three different mathematical and geometric variants of Placidus. Astrodienst has chosen the latter out of agnosticism. For Topocentric, Polich and Page performed some unfounded mathematical trickery.
Svarogich maintained the same formulation as for normal points on the sphere, but points out that there are sometimes three solutions to the formula for mundane positions, and one needs to look at them to decide which makes sense in a given situation. Hi Ed; I guess one has to be really on top of the game here and given the variation with different house implementations, the question of which house system to use becomes, to some extent, even more complicated. Because I was born and lived half my life in England, Placidus and Koch made no sense, and until I discovered Alcabitus, I relied on equal house charts!
As you say, this is very interesting, and thanks to you and Mark for enlightening me further. And thanks for the additional info on the case you looked at. I actually contributed the font and interpretive texts for this [free] program, which the latter needs to be activated through the settings.
Another great show well done Chris. It would have been interesting to have had Ken Bowser on the show for the Western Sidereal perspective an opportunity lost I think?
There is no reason one cannot use the Tropical Zodiac within the framework of Jyotish. We know have the technology to use the real Visual constellations as the backdrop for a more accurate astrology based on the 13 sign constellations. Sidereal AStrology should never be termed as Vedic Astrology. Sidereal Astrology developed in ancient Iraq. Vedic astrology is a wrong concept altogether and Indian astrology is right word. Indian Astrology never used the zodiac but the constellation nakshatras and other concepts. It is a different astrology altogether like Chinese, Maya, Egyptian and Celtic.
Somewhere in 4th Century, some Indian astrologers started using the zodiac. Since, the influence was Greek, I think the first Indian zodiac astrologers were using Tropical. Ancient Indians hardly remembered birthdates. So, zodiac was not at all popular. Even, nakshatra constellation was only a literary work and not put into use. Recently last 50 years , the zodiac has made an impression in India. Even, when I was young, astrology meant palm reading. Since, Nakshatra astrology became popular in last 90 years, the sidereal calculation was also applied to zodiac. Many astrologers in India use the word Vedic astrology only to play the emotional game with other Indians.
The reason is purely monetary. Regarding Sidereal vs Tropical debate, I am still confused and is still open to interpretations. Great talk as well. This will be true no matter the hemisphere. Only just found these — so donkey years 2 late to leave a topical comment.
These podcasts are really interesting, I am slowly ploughing my way through them. Nice work Chris and Team. Also: Lahiri was not chairman of the CRC, merely its secretary. He also printed a fairly popular ephemeris in India so no vested interests in having his ayanamsa being right. He was by all accounts an astrologer himself. There is no historical use of using Chitra Spica as reference star to define degree zero of the Zodiac. The constellations are indeed of unequal size, but where were their original boundaries? Like the boarders of countries, did these not shift over the ages.
Perhaps the lower section of Orphiuchus was originally part of Scopius? Modern constellations probably bear little resemblance to the ancient view of the skies. Perhaps it was just convenient to divide the zodiac into equal12 segments. Precession is not constant — so that puts a whole new slant on nutation calculation, nicely pointed out by Kenneth.
Who Moved My Stars? A Tale of Three Zodiacs
Weirdly Hipparcos used Chitra as one of his important starts to measure precession, he placed it at roughly degrees longitude, 3 degrees different to the popular Lahiri ayanamsa. There are many Ayanamsa used in India. The range Kenneth gives is very conservative. Some are much larger ie: more than 3 degrees different. Prior to Lahiri the most popular ayanamsa in India was Revatipaksha. Its a big mystery why we called Chitrapaksha, the Lahiri Ayanamsa.
Do you have a citation or a reference I could follow up on for the statement about a Greek prior to Hipparchus discovering precession? Go to their extended chart section and follow the instructions to cast a natal chart. For house system, choose Campanus, which is consensus choice of western sidereal astrologers such as we folks here on Solunars.
I purchased a copy of iPhermis to view Sidereal charts and I found it is a great piece of software but lacks the detailed information on birth charts and the current transits which I am used to having access to in TPP. I just contacted Astrograph to see if they will add the Sidereal option to the TPP but until then it looks like I'll have to spend a little more time doing things the old fashion way In fact, if you want interpretations, you'll probably want to start using the ones here or those given by other specifically sidereal astrologers.
They're less theoretically derived and more observationally derived. Personally, I love iPhemeris for everything except return charts it seems to be sloppy with its time calculations. Its transit calendar is really useful, IMO. I think it's the best thing out there that isn't Solar Fire. I wouldn't worry about getting interpretations from the software , honestly - I would just use it as a calculational tool.
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